We detached this subthread from https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14911995 and marked it off-topic.

How is this off-topic? Do you mean "off message"?

'Dissuading people from using drugs in the first place' is pretty far from the topic of a job board for felons. There's a connection, but it's a generic one. We've learned that generic tangents aren't good for discussion here.

This is standard HN moderation. When a subthread veers away from the original topic and also toward something more generic or ideological, we moderate the subthread as off topic. That caveat is important, since off-topic tangents can also be whimsical and sometimes more interesting than the original discussion. But on HN, 'generic' and 'interesting' are incompatible, and the generic stuff tends to take over the concrete if you let it (+10x when the material is flammable). Therefore we don't let it.

HN doesn't usually get trolls, so they probably don't have a category for it.

But you're welcome here if you can argue your point instead of throwing out one-liners.

Nonsense. I disagree with many people on HN. The problem here is you lack the courage of your convictions to actually debate anybody.

But please don't make a bad subthread even worse by resorting to incivility.

Fair enough.

That is the absolute wrong takeaway here. It's about being overly harshly punished for mistakes in their youths. I've heard very similar stories from public defenders that have nothing to do with drugs, but with common punishment escalations that are hard to avoid when you're poor, and people surely can't avoid being poor.

Minor fine goes unpaid because this month the electric bill is more important.

Leads to more fines.

Leads to license suspencion.

Leads to driving while license suspended.

Leads to license suspension.

Leads to driving while license suspended.

Leads to felony jail time.

Don't get me wrong, there are choices made at each stage of escalation, and often all that's needed is to show up to court, dressed in your sunday best and respectfully explain situation to the judge, and the chain can be broken, but being poor leads to a lot of suboptimal decisions that could make it difficult or impossible to deal with any of this until there is no choice, and a felony conviction often ends up as the escalation that can't be putoff any longer.

Meh, you gotta do what you gotta do. You think for one second that if I had my license revoked that I wouldn't drive to get to work to support my family? You're a statist if you think driver's licenses prove you are a good driver--they're bullshit, just like all those little tags and stickers are bullshit. And a man can only eat so much bullshit.

Sure, you can lose your job because you can't get to your job, or you can???

I'm sorry what alternative are you offering? We live in a society where driving is most necessary for those who can least afford it. I think you may grossly misunderstand how difficult life is for people struggling to get by.

You are right, that poor choices can lead someone to a scenario where there are no good choices though. Most of this chain can be broken by just taking some time to take care of their life, but that is not always as simple as it sounds. Right now I personally have societal+familial+work obligations that total 17+hrs daily and I'm lucky to get 6hrs sleep, 3 uninterrupted. I am not poor, and I'm lucky to have a very flexible job, so I could take time to deal a minor fine so it didn't escalate past early court escalations, but I'm not sure I'd be able to trivially take time off to deal with a court appearance if I had a more demanding job, I don't have a lot of flexibility elsewhere to borrow from.

Never forget that it's easy to judge someone's actions from outside, but in their same mental state and reality constraints, you may make the same decisions.

pfft... reduce your statement to "or like just follow the rules stupid" you really missed the point... fundamentally why do you think people do something like stealing food? because they don't know stealing is wrong? or because they are fucking hungry and are poor?

If you're an American, there are huge parts of the country where lacking a car is infeasible.

But for the sake of argument, let's say you shutter your car. You can spend a ton of time walking to, and waiting on, public buses, time you can't use to study for a degree, or be with your kids. Maybe you rely on a friend's car, but then you miss out on last-minute shift opportunities, and your friend's transport problems become your problems, too, so if they're sick, you miss a shift and risk getting fired.

You're so out-of-touch, I'm surprised you didn't just say "Let them Uber to work, then."

I'm not American, thankfully

National flamewar comments will get you banned here. Please don't do this again.

(Regardless of which nation, obviously.)

This guy has been hugely discourteous to me, why not ban him? Things like this are partly the reason I just want to delete my HN history and leave.

Leads to losing job...

leads to job loss. you want them to work, right?

No, it probably will not dissuade people all that effectively. That logic is part of the problem.

I forget the technical term for the bullshit argument you're throwing out - "if we can't have X, then clearly you support the polar opposite of X!"

Moving on, the actual reasonable conclusion here is to be smarter about what we deem a criminal act or not.

Why is getting caught smoking a joint something that can ruin your career for a decade, while drinking a beer on the sidewalk is a wrist-slap?

The best way to dissuade people from criminal behaviors (in my opinion) is to make the impetus for the behaviors less attractive.

I genuinely feel that that is not an ethical approach, nor is it any more effective than removing the temptation/ ability to commit certain crimes. In some cases, I agree, severe punishment needs to be codified into the law, but that represents a tiny minority of crimes committed in the US.

I think it's quite ethical, because it removes the burden from law-abiding people. There's also evidence to show that punishment works as a deterrent when applied as uniformly as possible, hence saving people from falling into the misery of criminality.

Your first statement there belies the fact that you know nothing about psychology. I'd suggest going to your local library and reading up on reward and punishment as it relates to behavioral design in a society.

I have a master's in psychology from Columbia, and I happen to agree that you're ignorant.

I do happen know the technical term for this particular bullshit argument you're throwing out: ad hominem, with a light sprinkling of appeal to authority, since you're implying he has none due to his job title.

See! You can read! Go find that library.

More current, considering my job changed. I hadn't changed it in two years. Probably wouldn't have changed it for another few years if you hadn't reminded me that profile descriptions exist.

> The best way to stop people doing bad things they want to do is the fear of certain and severe punishment.

There is no evidence that's true. People still take drugs in countries with the death penalty.

There's plenty of evidence that tough sentencing reduces crime - do your own research.

Of course, some people are so selfish and impulsive not much will deter them, but at least they're off the streets where they can make life miserable for the rest of us.

Or maybe it ought to convince us that we shouldn't make it so hard for people with minor criminal records to get back into society?

You realize that you can acquire a criminal record for something as innocuous as urinating on your own private property right?

Your comment is very insightful. I was in prison with lots of folks who: 1. Dealt pot. Now widely decriminalized. 2. Cheated on their taxes. I don't know a business person who doesn't fudge their T&E. 3. DWI/Drunk driving. Who among us hasn't driven, having had that extra glass of wine. Morality is frequently not as black-and-white as we'd wish it conveniently be. We are human. We screw up. There should be ramifications for our transgressions. But a life sentence! That's the punishment, effectively, that's meted out. How evolved does that make us, as a society?